Yes, you do. But if the elder lied and it came down your word against his, it sounds like many people would go with the elder. That is, of course, until they began trying to figure out why you would break the guys finger.
Cold Steel
JoinedPosts by Cold Steel
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Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?
by Cold Steel init has to have happened.
people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?
or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.
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Just a quick Poll...Do you think the GB is sincere?
by NikL ini've been thinking about this the past few days and curious what the honest consensus is here just for fun.. show of hands,.
is the governing body.... a: completely sincere.
they really do believe what they teach.. b: somewhat sincere.
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Cold Steel
Does it matter whether they're sincere or not? In the passage below, taken from Matthew 7, sincerity isn't mentioned once. If someone's marriage is ruined, their children driven away, I may have have great motives, but if the results are evil, how can I be good? And if I prophesy incorrect dates that cause others to ruin their lives, plan poorly, make poor investments and not educating themselves...
Aren't these evil fruits?
OR...if I, without any authority, cause someone to die because I guess concerning a doctrine that causes someone to refrain from lifegiving blood...
Isn't that evil fruit?
Where does the Lord mention sincerity?
15 Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. ...
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name [and]...done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. -
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Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?
by Cold Steel init has to have happened.
people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?
or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.
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Cold Steel
Dubstepped » You are also taught that they're appointed by God himself, so if you go against them, you're really going against God, and then you'll lose your hope of everlasting life.
Yeah, but the GB has said categorically that they (and this would extend to those under them) do not receive revelation or even inspiration from God. I'm LDS (Mormon) and my church is based on apostles, prophets, revelation and inspiration. If the LDS church announced that it did not receive revelation as the ancient church did, we would have millions of Mormons leaving the church overnight. The WTBTS says it doesn't receive revelation or inspiration, then what does it provide when it chooses elders and other officers? It becomes like the parable of the blind leading the blind.
The GB is supposed to be the faithful and wise servant who feeds the household of God and is responsible to God for managing His Household. But if God hired them and gave them the keys to the house and front gate, plus the right to distribute the chow, wouldn't the servant know about it (as it's a binding agreement between them and God)? Yet none of the GB members has seen an angel, none has spoken to God and none has received the keys of the kingdom that were given to Peter. Jesus said to the ancient Twelve, "For you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you." So when these apostles chose elders, I concede that if they were called and chosen of God, then those elders at least could make a claim to back up their flashlights, guns, uniforms and badges that go with the job.
So why do the JWs believe the elders are appointed by God? It's a fundamental question for someone who can take away your wife [SNAP!], other family members [SNAP!], friends [SNAP!] and fellow worshippers like that [SNAP!] If GB members really were God's chosen and appointed servants, I could at least understand why they might revere them and their apointees, but the GB has been denying inspiration and revelation for years, right?
So where does the idea come from that elder selections are of God when they can do so much damage? (Including causing suicides, which I also should have asked about.) Surely people with that kind of power could conceivably drive people to do that if the power is abused.
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What criteria does Russia use to label a religion as extremist?
by sparky1 incheck this out on the russian ministry of justice webpage.
the governing body is going to have to do some fancy footwork to get around this criteria:.
http://minjust.ru/deyatelnost-v-sfere-nekommercheskih-organizaci/missionerskaya-.
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Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?
by Cold Steel init has to have happened.
people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?
or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.
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Cold Steel
Blondie > There was a touchy, feely elder in my congregation and he had assaulted 4 sisters, one married, but her husband was afraid to do anything.
That elder came up to me in a swimming pool at a jw party and tried to grab me, I broke his finger. He told others he had broken on the bottom of the pool when he jumped in. The homeowners were afraid he would sue them, but he didn't. He showed up at work where my family member worked, and they knew I had broken his finger and why. The touching stopped......fortunately he died not long after that....
What is it that instills this fear of elders? Can anyone explain?? They're appointed positions, so the leadership should expect that abuses would pop up from time to time. Or do they just automatically support the elders? What would have happened had you and your friends just pulled the shunning routine on the elder?
Blondie > ...he died due to a genetic defect....
Complications having to do with an infection of the right index finger. Seriously, if it came down to your word against his, what do you think would have happened?
Sparky1 > When I was at Watchtower Farms, a young fellow got drunk and punched Frank Lewis (the Home Overseer) in the face! He was sent home immediately.
Geesh, I can barely wait to read your book! How long did you spend there? This guy who writes under the name Brock Talon said the authorities were really tough on smoking, but that lots of people had problems with alcohol because the folks at Bethel permitted it.
I was having issues with my closeted gay Elder roommate. He kept making passes at me and I had enough of that and went to Frank Lewis about it to get a room reassignment. Frank got furious with me for 'making accusations against an Elder' and threatened to physically 'throw me out of Bethel'. I told Frank that if he laid a hand on me that I would lay him out then and there. Later, I confronted my roommate about the whole issue and got into a big argument with him at the 'tool crib' in the factory. I grabbed him and was going to beat the shit out of him and he started to scream like an old woman.
When you had your problem with Lewis, how long did it take for the conversation to go South?
Any chance that Lewis rolled that way, too? Generally, when a guy makes a pass at another guy, there's no room for taking it the wrong way. He was either accusing you of misreading the guy or of lying. The latter is enough to get your jaw bent in most places my way. Can't imagine how the leadership would react to having two people hitting the same guy.
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Has Anyone Ever Just Gotten Mad and "Popped" an Elder?
by Cold Steel init has to have happened.
people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?
or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.
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Cold Steel
It has to have happened. People get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.
Does that ever happen? Or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old Kingdom Hall?
We're all people and are sometimes given to reacting in anger. What would be the disciplinary action for such a thing?
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Cold Steel
Jehovah's Witnesses completely take the term "Armageddon" out of context. I've asked so many of them to justify the event they're expecting with the event the Bible speaks of when it talks about Armageddon, and not one of them has managed to do it. They read the Bible, study it, and yet they have no idea what Armageddon meant to the ancient Jews or the Christians. The Governing Body takes a fairly interesting and redemptive prophecy and converts it into an engine of hatred and fear in which God slaughters much of the human race.
Brock, in his narrative, talks about how many JWs tell each other, "...well, they're going to get theirs!" and smugly believe that God will avenge them of every criticism or slur that's ever been leveled against them. In fact, everything from status (pecking order) to revenge is at the center of its theology. Those foolish enough to go against those who have been appointed over them apparently risk disciplinary action.
The entire Christian movement was built on forgiveness and service. When a JW denies himself or herself college, they deny themselves personal betterment. When the young people at Bethel were criticized for using the weight room, the critics failed to understand that exercising one's body is a way of building personal discipline and respecting the temple that God gave them. It's not advanced theology. Building discipline is a way people master their mind over body. The same is true of denying one's self a college education, mastering one's mind and respecting the intelligence God gave us. How any theologian could miss these points is beyond me.
Apparently it all comes down to control, which is where this domination comes from. Many JWs have stories of being counseled by other members who feel free to simply barge into their business. I know of no other church where that would be acceptable or appropriate.
How does this go over with converts?
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Don Rickles Dead at 90
by minimus inanother old time comic gone.
i recently saw him on an old johnny carson show.
rest in peace!.
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Cold Steel
He was one of the greats. I loved the guy.
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Cold Steel
Comments? Stories? Reminiscences?
After decades of being one, I had to face the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses are all about the judgment of others, and even each other. Their constant sizing up of each other’s “spiritual strengths” and “spiritual weaknesses” is simply reprehensible. Their disdain of everyone else who is not a Witness is disgusting. Their works-based religion is impossible to fulfill without self-reproach and trepidation.
Neither do they really love. Not others. Not even each other. Their so-called love is based on merit only. If you do what they like, they’ll put up with you. If not, they’ll drop you without hesitation and not feel a thing about it. I’m sorry to say it, but this kind of behavior is simply not love.
When I was a Witness, I was just like them too. But I couldn’t see that what I was doing was wrong. As a rule, Jehovah’s Witnesses simply can’t see this about themselves in the same way people with bad body odor usually can’t smell themselves.
--Brock Talon
Journey To God’s House: An Inside Story of Life At The World HQ of Jehovah’s Witnesses
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Mormon Baptizing the dead??
by James Mixon inwhy the big controversy over baptizing the dead, they are dead folks..i know it's a quirky practice but jewish leaders are up in arms because the lds leaders are baptizing holocaust victims..what harm is it??
?hell jw's are preaching everyone will go up in flames no one believe that crap except jw but no one is up in arms, they know they walk a different step....the lds leaders agreed to halt baptisms specifically of jews holocaust victims in 2010 but they are at it again, baptizing jews.
this is funny as hell to me.
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Cold Steel
Baptism for the dead is a very complex doctrine that goes well beyond the salvational aspects of baptism alone.
Baptism is a covenant, and for a covenant to be efficacious, it requires the consent of both parties, so baptism for the dead requires the consent of those on the other side to make it binding. If they refuse it, they can, and no, they won't go to Hell unless they're bad people and then, it won't last forever. Mormons have a compassionate theology and we view Hell as being remedial rather than retaliatory. It's no less pleasant, but it's designed to redeem souls, though there are penalties.
Work for the dead, including baptism for the dead, was widely practiced in the ancient church. See 1 Corinthians 15:29* and:
Baptism For The Dead In Ancient Times
Baptism For The Dead BlogThere was a fierce debate about it in the patristic era of the church, but no one can deny now that the early Christians believed in it, and that they believed men had spirits. The whole soul sleeping doctrine was essentially an Adventist doctrine.
We don't intentionally seek out Holocaust victims, but we occasionally have names submitted from other sources. We believe one of the primary reasons the Millennium will take place is to do work for the dead.
* "Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead if the dead
rise not at all. Why are they then baptized for the dead?"